It seems to me that some squishy words are being used. One term I picked up on in your previous post is “offend”. By offend I do not mean making someone upset, twisting their nose, hurting their pride or annoying someone. I do not think Paul used this connotation in the NT when he spoke of offending a brother.

By offend, I think the apostle Paul meant “to cause to stumble into actual sin.” Just because someone does not like your freedom to down a few beers is not an offense. Your downing a few beers in front of a young believer who also happens to be a recovering alcholic could be an offense.

I use the term offense strictly and I use narrowly defined examples. In the privacy of your home or with a group of friends who do not have alcohol as a stumbling block is not a problem. My example of the person in my Bible study group is defined only in the context of that setting. When I am with members of the Bible study group and she is not among them, I will freely partake of a pastry. However, in her presence, in deference to her situation I will refrain.

As I stated previously, we cannot let material things or even our freedoms override our relationships with people.

I am a little taken aback that this is such a big issue–the consumption of alcohol. I guess I just have not been paying much attention to the issue or it has recently mushroomed into something much larger.

The issue for me was decided years ago for several reasons which I have posted on my blog at http://proseworthy.blogspot.com/. Alot of it had to do with my own inability to wisely consume alcoholic beverages, my families past and my sons’ futures.

I think the facts that you brought out in this post is excellent, especially these two:

1. The call for teetotalling (sp) among Christians is a recent (mid-to-late 1800’s), culturally rooted phenomenon (although I am not so certain that it has its roots in feminism). This is important because we need to make the distinction between what is merely traditional and what has its roots in the teachings of the NT. Mandatory prohibition, I believe, derives completely from the former. Christ certainly drank alcoholic wine (and the current debate among pastors on whether his wine was alcoholic is completely unscholarly), and he even made it. The NT teaches only against its abuse and addition to alcohol.

2. That we need to make a distinction between enjoying something and abusing something. We cannot decry something as bad because it is possible to abuse it. This deflects responsibility from the abuser.

I have given this much thought because I live in a land where alcoholism is one of the leading causes of death, divorce and homelessness among men, and where people consume more alcohol per capita than in any other nation on earth. I have several close family members on my wife’s side who are outright alcoholics, some who frequently binge for literally weeks on end. I understand the issues.

Balance, yes. Caution – absolutely. But let us not fight the vices of men with mere extra-biblical rules that are powerless to really help the situation. Legalism is a far-more dangerous abuse (of truth) that alcoholism is (of alcohol). And its end is far worse too.

And don’t lose sight of what I condemn… and that is the calling of a sin what is clearly not by Christ’s own example. What bugs me is when people who aren’t comfortable with this part of Christ simply re-write or twist scripture to mold a more palatable Jesus that fits into their church’s ideology. That is heresy.

Plainly, many in the Protestant church are teaching false doctrines of Christ’s character to conform with their own comforts. Drinking is no more a sin than eating or bathing or working. It’s only the “abuse” of such that becomes a sin. Actually, I like the way Mark put it above when he said the key is to not lose sight of God.

Now we can argue about what causing someone to “stumble” is. That woman with no control… how does she exist? She must eat sometime, right? Whatever clever method she uses to eat, why not use that method for your refreshment time? If she can’t control her food intake why don’t you give her a set portion and then when everyone takes their portion you sit down in a different room from the food?

And seriously… think about the crazy implications here. What if she was among the five thousand that needed to be fed… what the heck is Christ going to do? And I suppose the church should stop having potluck dinners, right… after all, it’s better to have fellowship with the entire church, including her, than to enjoy a delicious turkey dinner with gravy-soaked stuffing and hot mashed potatos without her. And holy smokes… what if she was at the last supper… she would have screwed the whole thing up!

The Bible is full of references to Christ’s people enjoying food, and often feasts, together in fellowship. Do we reduce our fellowship to the lowest common denominators? I don’t think so. However, I do think that your particular decision with the Bible study was right… but to use it as a blanket warning against doing anything that might offend anybody is just downright politically liberal of you. There were brothers in Christ who were offended by Gentiles not being circumcised… do they follow Paul’s teaching and lop it off even though they were told they didn’t have to by other brothers in Christ? According to your illustration they should as to not offend… but this is another instance where the logic fails. And again, we’re not called to avoid offense. And btw, I couldn’t tell you how many Sunday mornings I have personally witnessed people “offended” by certain styles of worship they don’t approve of… but what would appear to be counter to Paul’s teaching was also completely within God’s will for the church.

How does this reconcile with Paul’s teaching? Balance. Because there will never be a church where something won’t offend somebody somehow no matter which course of action you take, or even taking no action. Balance. And again… calling the use of alcohol, rather than the abuse of it, a sin is most definitely NOT balance. An entire church abstaining from any fellowship involving food is NOT balance. So… a line must be drawn somewhere… this is the “balance” part.

A couple of comments:

1) Your argument loses strength when you are so vehement and you engage in ad hominem attacks. Decent Christians can disagree without getting angry and you sound very angry. Also, please check out my blog on the reasons why I do not drink: http://proseworthy.blogspot.com/

2) jessiecoates had a good point that cannot be ignored. Case in point. I lead a small Bible study group and we often have refreshments–e.g., donuts, pastries, etc. I noticed one of our members many times did not stick around when there were refreshments but did participate when there were none. So we had a talk. I found out that she has a physical disability which causes her to have no control over her food consumption. As a result she a has a very regimented diet and avoids situations where she can’t control her food intake. Hmmm….what should I do. Should I infringe on the liberties of everyone else in the Bible study by saying we no longer will be eating during the Bible study? Or, should I say “well it’s her tough luck. She should learn to control herself. Why should everyone else suffer for her?”

Which option do you think I took? I took the first and it was right. None of us need the pastries and it is better for her to have the Bible study and fellowship. Which is more important, fellowship or my liberty to eat pastries? The apostle Paul said he would never eat meat again if it offended one of his brothers in Christ.

Which is more important, the liberty to consume alcohol or fellowship with a brother and protecting him from falling?

Just a thougtht.

I am an amber ale fan…

What would Jesus name his beer?

Alcohol is such a common vehicle for abuse, as is sex and food and other things mentioned on this page. That is why I feel it is important to have a healthy, educated, balanced relationship with any of these things. Any addiction is going to result in that list of stuff in my last post (dysfunction, disease, death, etc.). I have seen plenty of addiction (of all kinds) and I guess that’s why I think that mature Chrisitans should model the balance. I do not see that balance re: alcohol in some of the circles I run in right now, if you catch my drift.

[Do not read that last statement as an attack on you... I think your thread here is beginning to model balance. I am talking about other circles.]

The bottom line would be that only “abuse” of alcohol leads to any of the things you mentioned… not alcohol itself. Unfortunately, the part about “abuse” often gets tossed out of the equation by abstentionist church leaders who resonate with the idea that drinking alcohol is less holy. Abuse of guns leads to some bad things (worse than alcohol, really), but it’s not the guns that are the problem, and using a gun responsibly is a Constitutional, time-honored tradition that shouldn’t be abstained from no matter how many stories of tragedy come out of gun-crime victim groups.

Someone very close to me had an alcholic mother (and no, it’s not me). This woman has told me countless stories of embarrasment, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, parentification, adultery, fetal alcohol syndrome, suicide, cancer, and divorce that all stemmed from her mother’s alcoholism. I could relate some of these grotesque stories, but I am not sure it’s appropriate for your website.

I ran a therapy group for women who struggled with relationship addictions(and related issues) and one theme that kept coming up was alcohol. Many of these women “acted out” only when alcohol was in the picture. Their relationship addictions were held at bay until their inhibitions were dropped.

I guess my point is that I see this from a therapeutic perspective and, although you’ve proven that drinking is permissible Scripturally, I have serious concerns about the whole issue. First Corinthians 6:12 says, “Just because something is technically legal doesn’t mean that it’s spiritually appropriate. If I went around doing whatever I thought I could get by with, I’d be a slave to my whims.” (The Message)

I’m open to more discussion on it.

I enjoyed the Piper piece… thanks for posting it. And not just because it featured naked Germans lying around. I did smile to myself when I found that I could take his apology for the change in his church by-law and substitute in “eating dessert” for “drinking alcohol”… again, another idea I stole from Brad Stine (also of German origin but never publicly naked in Munich – I don’t think).

Actually, I felt a little bad for John, because he had to grunt out such an eloquent and loquacious logic-progression for merely convincing his hard-liners to use “free thought” rather than “law” in their behavioral worship… that it seemed equivalent to a Nazi environmentalist calling for an end to Jewish ovens because Jews emitted hydrocarbons when immolated. The analogy may not be precise, but I’m still chuckling about it.

I know that there are parts of the world where alcohol in general is more of a stumbler… in fact you may be familiar with one of those cultures *wink* (and indeed while I was over there I was offered drink by strangers quite too often)… but that’s where the beautiful and wondrous BRAIN comes in.

Yes, I am sometimes mildly floored, and other times drasticly vexed, at the disregard for Biblical ideals in favor of late 1800′s ideals. Why do we always fall back on the laws of men… like we’ve learned nothing in 2000 years. Maybe I’ll ponder that one over an Oatmeal Stout.

Thanks for your perspectives. They make me think harder.

Oooh… hey, I just read the discussion after the SBC resolution… there’s some good stuff in there.

mahndisa :: Some great insights! Perhaps I could examine the effect of particle acceleration on the respiration of the yeast? I might be able to use Lorentzian time dilation to keep the beer colder, longer. (okay, now I’m being silly)

I agree with you about the brews… especially the dark one for pondering deep thoughts. Yes, it is decided… at the next Theology at the Taproom I shall have an Outmeal Stout.

And yes, I used to work at a restaurant back in high school and I can remember seeing priests from our local Catholic university come and have a beer with their meal. I remember thinking to myself that they were so un-Christ-like for doing so… what a little punk fool I was. Not I’m a big punk fool, but that’s not the point here.

MMmmm…. Oatmeal Stout….

According to the Association of Brewers, the world’s finest Oatmeal Stout is brewed in Troy , NY by Brown’s Brewing Company. Brown’s Oatmeal Stout took home a Gold Medal at the World Beer Cup held in San Diego, April 2004 – perhaps the most prestigious beer judging event in the world.
Malts : Two row pale, black, chocolate, flaked rolled oats, caramel
Hops : Willamette
Alcohol : 5.5%

Hey Steve:
Great post! I too lament over the ‘self deprivation as Christian’ theology. It makes little sense if one reads about the life and times of Christ. I even recall a story when he turned water to wine at a party! I have heard that there is a ‘time for all things’ and think that scripture definitely applies to alcohol. In any event, I wish you well in your brewing adventure. My husband and I’s project together is gardening, but we have been considering brewing as well. In either case, I think Jesus might drink a dark brew like a Guiness if he was contemplative and light ale if he was partying. This is purely speculation and I am sure he may have drank more wine than beer. I wonder if it was kosher wine? I haven’t tasted too many good Kosher wines though. Maybe the stuff back then was better.

What neat dialog that the Theology At the Taproom will generate! Interestingly enough, many of the Catholic priests in my town have not abandoned pub patronage. One of the most beloved priests (RIP, God bless) Father Silva used to be a regular at St. Stan’s, which used to be the restaurant-brewery in town. Interesting the divergences between Catholocism and Protestenism is that regard.

OK I am rambling. Hope you have a great rest of week:)

And that is why I was saddened by the recent decision by a lot of really good men in the SBC to encourage church-wide prohibitions (resolution found here). I felt like it was a step back. We would gain a lot of ground by cherishing true Christian freedom balanced with the expedience that Paul advocated in his freedom (Rom 14).

Let us know how the brew turns out. Maybe you can start your own WarAxe Beer & Theology Pub.

The brother who can’t drink with control has issues he needs to work out, and nobody should try and stumble him. But don;t misintepret what that means. For instance, if I’m spending too much time watching football because it is a serious temptation for me does that mean that everyone in my men’s group at church has to stop talking about the game when I walk in the door? Of course not… that would be just stupid. Because otherwise, by that same logic Christ could never have drank because somebody without self-control would have seen Him or heard about it and felt “encouraged” and gotten drunk.

Being strong enough to drink and not get drunk is about the same as being strong enough to eat desserts at your meals and not get fat over time. No argument you make about alcohol cannot be used in the same manner about other things (like dessert) that the same anti-alcohol people have no problem with. This is the very definition of hypocrisy. Basically we need to stop trying to remake Jesus into what WE wish Him to be.