Incidentally this video pretty much sums up the reason why anyone who’s truly following Christ is against Obama would have grave reservations about supporting Obama. If you really don’t, then you’re really not. That sentence was meant to be read and re-read as many times as necessary. 
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I'm a Christ-follower, compelled by my faith toward reason, which points directly toward conservatism. This world's daily onslaught of lunacy offends my intellect and senses, so this is my venue to blow off steam.
Read and re-read. It’s still a silly statement to make.
I personally have friends who assured me that if Obama is elected president, they will leave the country. I agree with you religiously, also. McCain 08′.
I have not found anywhere in scripture where legalizing child butchery is Christ-like… nor have I discerned any possible Presidential issue that would render the keeping of legal child butchery a palatable compromise. Rather quite the opposite — no other issue would come close, and no other issue would be as clearly one-sided by any Evangelical interpretation of scripture. Quite frankly, abortion is godless, and clearly so.
I haven’t heard any Christian Obama supporter explain what about Obama is greater than protection of living infants from being cut to pieces alive. Oh make no mistake, I’ve asked the question… but I just get crickets in response.
John Piper, responding to one of last year’s judicial rulings on abortion, wrote this great article (also suitable for re-reading
). http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/2159_Let_the_Python_Eat_Its_Tail_Amen/
An excerpt:
At some point all of liberal Christendom — entire churches — may have to go through a painful “inner repentance”. As for me… I’m covering the “outrage”.
On Mark Driscoll’s blog RESURGENCE, Michael Spielman crafts a wonderful piece spelling out our Biblical mandate to fight abortion. http://theresurgence.com/michael_spielman_2006_biblical_mandate
Here’s an excerpt where he even quotes Francis Schaeffer:
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the abortion issue, just not on the over-simplistic statement you make. I have yet to hear a McCain supporter explain how anyone who is truly following Christ votes for McCain. Or does the Bible only condemn one issue?
It amazes me that some of the people who are so vehemently against hunting and fishing (because of the cruel slaughter of innocent animals) will gladly support a person’s right to kill a human being.
“People are dumb, panicky animals….” -K, Men in Black
McCain, for all his faults (of which I remind myself and others), has a solid pro-life record. Palin is vehemently pro-life. There, now you’ve heard it.
I still haven’t heard mine, though.
Whether McCain, Palin, Biden, Obama… black, white, male, female… it’s the principles they bring with them that matter, more than the personality. I don’t really go around saying I “support” this person or that person so much as I support whichever person holds values closest to mine — which would hopefully also be Christ-honoring values. So I could care less about the debates or the speeches or the hype — pointless media vanity. I say it’s really about what they’re actions reveal of their principles and character.
My “over-simplistic statement” doesn’t necessarily come from my own profound bursts of reasoning. If anything, I have merely boiled down the thoughts of others… prominent and respected Evangelical theologians, apologists, and preachers who on their worst day are better than me on my best day. I’m surely not the only one who feels that way… not even locally.
I can see where my specific phrase “is against Obama” may be over-simplified. BUT, the phrase I’d replace it with is “would have grave reservations about voting for Obama”… and no Christian Obama supporters I’ve heard have expressed any reservations at all, so changing the phrase wouldn’t change the statement as a whole. Definitely Brian McClaren (the heretic?) has no reservations.
Christ calls us to care for the “least of these”, and since the unborn are the LEAST of the least of these, well… it seems pretty simple and I think we both agree on that. So then it would follow that supporting a pro-life candidate honors Christ, and supporting a pro-choice candidate does NOT honor Christ. If one disagreed with that statement for a given race (like McCain vs Obama) their line-of-reasoning to the contrary would have to demonstrate Biblical principles exclusively held by the pro-choice candidate (or un-Biblical principles exclusively held by the pro-life candidate) that could arguably overcome the Christ-honoring-ness of the pro-life stance (or lack thereof for the pro-choice stance). Any particular Biblical issues you were thinking of?
Wow. I feel really sick to my stomach now.
I wholeheartedly (and with my mind too!) agree!
I can’t say that I support McCain on everything and I definatley don’t agree with Obama on many subjects but this one alone is a very controversial topic. I wouldn’t base my personal vote on one single issue but as you said, Obama supports abortion in almost every sense and therefore his values don’t parallel with mine. It is important to be able to support our president even when all their decisions don’t appeal to us but you can’t support a value system 180 degrees from what is right.
There is such a thing as an absolute … therefore there are rights and wrongs …. no grey areas on abortion.
Steve, keep it coming. Thanks for sharing the links to other articles and bringing the work of great theologians and pastors to the attention of your readers.
So, I’m about to make an argument I haven’t fully embraced yet, but it is one giving me much pause these days, and I think worth considering:
First, I’m a Christ-follower, have always voted Republican, and will probably vote for McCain. So I’m not writing any of this as someone who doesn’t understand the perspective. Rather, I’ve found myself reconsidering some of my views in recent years. One of which is the view that there is something deeply un-Christian about being a Democrat. I grew up essentially believing this. But I don’t any longer. I disagree with most of liberal philosophy and don’t tend to agree with Christian Democrats’ analysis of the issues and reasons for being liberal (fyi I haven’t checked that link thoroughly, can’t say how quality the content is). But more and more I think there are genuine believers on both sides of the political aisle, and that politics in this country has driven a deep, bloody wedge into the church that should not be there.
Fundamentally, it’s a question of absolute vs pragmatic views of politics.
I think the challenge with the whole abortion issue is one of choosing your battles. I realize there are many Christians who would disagree with me on this one, but if there is something I believe in, but also believe isn’t going to change in the near future, I think it’s okay to allow other issues to take priority that have a larger chance of making some headway.
That was vauge. Okay, I’ll be specific. I think abortion is wrong. I also don’t think the laws in the US are going to dramatically change in the near future. Overturning Roe v Wade? Not in the next four years. Probably not in the next 20.
So the question that raises is this: if a candidate holds a belief I believe to be deeply wrong, but it’s something that’s completely deadlocked in our contry, can I in good conscience vote for him based on *other* beliefs with which I agree?
It’s a question of practical politics.
This is the part where many Christians would say “you cannot sacrifice your moral beliefs simply because an issue is challenging or hard or unlikely to change”, or “you can’t support evil in order to achieve good”, etc. In other words: “You can’t vote for someone who supports abortion, because abortion is wrong. Period. You can’t compromise what you know to be right just because it’s caught in a stalemate.”
Okay, to which I would say: then how are you voting for McCain? How did you vote for Bush? In fact, how do you ever vote at all?
If you have ever once voted for a political candidate who supported an issue you considered to be “non-Christian” to any degree, then you have “compromised” what you know to be right for the sake of making headway on other issues.
The thing is, I don’t think it has to be compromise. Politics is not daily life. Politics in this country is a two-choice situation every four years (ignoring third party candidates). You must choose one of two people, neither of whom, I’m willing to bet, perfectly matches what you believe to be the definition of a “Christian” life.
In my opinion, the best we can do is to prioritize. You choose which issues are the most important to you and vote based on that. With abortion I can understand this approach. For many Christians it is *the* number one issue. I get it. I think it’s bad too. But the question is this: if it seems reasonable to suspect that abortion isn’t going to get changed in the next four years, is it really fair to say that someone who votes for Obama isn’t a real Christian because he supports abortion?
I’m gonna link to a Christian figure here some people don’t like. Don Miller. I don’t agree with everything he says, but I think generally he’s well-intentioned if sometimes misguided. And I think he’s a genuine Christian. More importantly, however, in his abortion comments in this post, he articulates quite well the position I’m talking about. It’s the pragmatist approach.
I’m not saying it’s right, but to be honest, I think it makes a lot of sense. And I say that as a Christian who does my best to carefully consider my views in life.
I’m not voting for Obama. I have other reasons besides the abortion one that make me think he’s a bad idea. But I believe there are genuine Christians out there who will vote for him, and with all respect to everyone here, I think there is a deep problem within the church these days of judging people, not on the profession of Christ, but by their political leanings*. I think it causes division and hurt, and it’s my sincere hope that we all (myself included) at least try to see how genuine, true believers can be on both sides of the aisle.
For what it’s worth, I’m a voting Republican, and like I mentioned above, I won’t be voting for Obama. That post above by Don Miller really helped me with something I had been struggling with, the question of how someone can be a Christ-seeking person and vote Democrat. Like I said, I don’t agree with a lot of his opinions, but the one thing it helped me with was seeing that there are genuine Christians on both sides of the political aisle, even the one that supports abortion.
Just my two cents. And it may be wrong. Very much an issue I’m still sorting through in my own life and mind. I welcome any and all replies.
—–
*The Economist tends to be slightly biased against Christians, but the article linked here makes, I think, some very salient points about the culture wars in America. Also fascinating is this article on the origin of the culture wars, which implies some troubling questions about whether the politically-charged attitude of the church in this country was originally catalyzed by external political strategizing, rather than a Christ-motivated movement… Anyway, just a thought.
Steve- thank you. In our desire to be more understanding of our times and our culture, lets never lose sight of our values. Yes, I’m a values voter, isn’t everyone? Scott, some truths are so simple that they need no “nuanced” versions. Abortion is evil. There is no moral equivalent in our society and, agruably, in history. No social program will ever compensate for this. You cannot compare the loss of millions of innocent babies intentionally murdered in the name of convenience to the unintended consequences of war (loss of civilian life). No matter how unjust you may feel that war is.
Wow, there’s been some good comments on here since I commented last… and I’m just getting caught up.
I appreciate the encouragement I’ve received here (and via email, etc) to maintain a stand for truth and against the evils of abortion (and of abortion-rights-supporters, and of abortion-rights-supporter-supporters, etc. etc.).
@StanTheMan
You bring up some great points and links and I’d like to address a few of them.
I am heartened by the fact that there are now at least 4 out of 9 Supreme Court judges who can be counted on not to support legalized infant murder. A fifth would give those on the side of truth a majority. I’ve seen too many decisions lost 3-6 and 4-5 to not appreciate how close we now are to protecting God’s unborn creation. We never know when a vacancy will open up (life is funny like that)… so when it does I don’t want a pro-choicer filling that spot. So in that sense I disagree that this isn’t a pragmatic issue.
I’ve read some of Don Miller’s, Brian McClaren’s, and Matthew25.org’s rhetoric on their support for the left… but while probably well-meaning it has serious logical flaws (which isn’t surprising since secular humanism is found at the core principles of the left).
Miller touts Obama’s 95/10 plan for abortions (reducing them by 95% in 10 years), but this plan misses the Christ-honoring point entirely… which is to protect the little ones Christ is forming in their mothers’ wombs. Obama’s plan is actually more of a social plan to use education and birth control to reduce abortions by merely reducing the number of women-who-would-abort from getting pregnant in the first place.
Can you imagine a Nazi 95/10 plan? The Nazis would reduce Jew-murders by 95% in 10 years… by simply reducing the number of Jews on hand to kill. On the surface it would seem “pragmatic” and a step in the right direction, but it misses addressing the evil of murdering Jews (or abortion) altogether, even allowing the practice to continue albeit in smaller numbers… and therefore it does NOT honor Christ.
I do agree with the “choose your battle” concept… very much. BUT, I think that no other “battle” has one clearly correct side (pro-life) and one clearly incorrect side (pro-choice) as abortion does. Of all the other issues, no position McCain holds is clearly ungodly (in my opinion – and nobody has articulated otherwise)… unlike Obama’s clearly ungodly pro-choice stance. Advantage McCain. Indeed, that would make McCain the only Christ-honoring choice of the two even if all his other stances were super-lame (yet not overtly ungodly).
The biggest issue I have with the few well-known leftist Christians is that they seem to be either flirtingly (Miller) or definitely (McClaren) theological heretics. As Driscoll would say “don’t drink from the spiritual toilet even if you find water in there”. The core problem is this… liberalism is based on a humanist worldview. It’s deeply flawed and doesn’t overlap with the Christian worldview like conservatism does (and I said conservatism, not Republicanism). The same well-known Christians supporting Obama are the same ones questioning the virgin birth, the sin of homosexuality, substitutionary atonement, and even the concept of absolute truth itself!? It doesn’t surprise me that a sinful worldview corrupts a Christian’s entire belief system… whether in the church or in the voting booth.
I’ve noticed that while Christians on the right seem to have formed their conservative political beliefs as an extension built upon their Christian beliefs… Christians on the left seem to have rationalized their political beliefs to “blend in” socially with scripture (or at least the parts of scripture they haven’t thrown out). We could all recount theologian after theologian who has warned of such compromise that has engulfed the emergent movement. Ok — let me boil it down a bit more for my own sake. Liberal Christians (like Miller or McClaren) seem to be liberal first, Christian second… since so much of liberalism relies on having faith in secular governmental intervention as a substitute for God’s people doing His work. Conservative Christians seem to be Christian first, conservative second… since conservatives want the secular government to be smaller and allow the people to carry out God’s work themselves as he commanded.
Here’s a link to Don Miller’s interview with ChristianityToday regarding his invite to pray at the Dem convention: LINKED ARTICLE. As you can read, Don considers Republicans “the party of the extremely wealthy” and goes on to say, “I get a bit frustrated when the evangelical position is reduced to [abortion and homosexuality]. So many other issues are not a concern to us”. But of course he fails to mention what might be any of these “other issues”. Blue like liberal.
Wow, you’ve made me really have to think today!
A gem of a site: Born Alive Truth
Another: AFA 2008 Voter’s Guide
Steve:
Great topic and response to Stantheman. I couldn’t have said it better.
I live in the Detroit area and I listen to the christian talk show host Bob Dukto(Doo-ko). He has covered this election season very well on his show. He also has a top ten proofs audio cd collection called Top Ten Proofs. One of his cd’s is one is him stating America’s Christian Heritage or History. He does a lot of Christian Apologetics and uses a lot of logic in his debates. Anyone interested in these Top Ten Proofs Cds can check out his website at http://www.toptenproofs.com. Or http://www.wmuz.com and click on Bob Dukto on the left side of the page.
Steve,
Don’t have time for a long reply right now. But in short, I think you make some really good points, and I agree with much of what you said. Your points about the supreme court nominees are good ones as well, I hadn’t realized we still had a couple judges close to retirement.
By the way, you’re lucky I don’t invoke Godwin’s Law here
As for the liberal christian authors like Don Miller, I tend to similarly think that their being Democrats is more a result of them trying to reconcile wanting to rebel against the ideology of people who hurt them in the past with trying to see how being a liberal can fit with being a Christian. In other words, I think they rationalize their liberalism for a variety of reasons they may not even be aware of, not least of which is that they don’t want to be associated with the political party and “christian right” who they grew up resenting. However, in a funny way, even though I think they’re making a somewhat self-deceiving and certainly ill-informed choice, I’m sort of glad they’re out there. Because I have liberal friends who are made more receptive to the message of the gospel by knowing that there are both Democrats and Republicans out there who are followers of Christ.
Anyway, abortion is one of those issues I’ve always sort of “towed the conservative party line” on, mostly due to a lack of energy or interest in deepening my understanding of the issue. Life, as you know, has many things vying for our attention. Naturally, the older I get the more interested I become in examining such things, so I enjoyed the exchange here.
Incidentally, one of *my* primary reasons for not voting for Obama was the way he completely subverted scripture in his convention speech, using it to present an anti-christian message of “heaven on earth”. Anyone who manipulates scripture so blatantly for non-Christ-honoring ends concerns me greatly. He takes the “eternal” message of Christ and manipulates it into the “temporary” message of worldly success and prosperity.
For example, here’s 2 Corinthians:
“Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”
And here is Obama’s convention speech:
“Instead, it is that American spirit – that American promise – that pushes us forward even when the path is uncertain; that binds us together in spite of our differences; that makes us fix our eye not on what is seen, but what is unseen, that better place around the bend.”
my avatar made me laugh.
i dont care if its not bush im happy
I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.
We almost wish we hadn’t bought our house with this tough economy. Doing all we can to keep groceries on the table.
I really liked your blog!
I liked this article!
Well, iam foreing, iam not very good writing in english, i just wanted to say thanks for this !
Now thats what i call a good read, i have bookmarked your site and will certainly be reading more of your posts.
Excellent post, thanks. Do you mind if I quote a line from it and link back?
I like this theme you are using… what is it?
Enjoying reading your blog. Hard work always pays off.
I Love your blog on google and have read many of your posts. Excellent. Keep up the good work!!!
Wow – I found this through google and read several of your other posts – added ya to my G Reader, Keep up the good work. Looking forward to reading more each day. Mark
This is a very big issue for me as well, and if people really respected human life for what it is they could never condone abortion.
eat raw vegetables, practice yoga and meditation… oh yes and don’t forget to have a medical checkup every year!
Some more tips would be great as stuff does change. Any more information and experiences are appreciated.
I think they rationalize their liberalism for a variety of reasons they may not even be aware of, not least of which is that they don’t want to be associated with the political party and christian right who they grew up resenting.
Can you tell me what template you’re using for your blog? Thanks!
It’s a custom template I designed and coded.
I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the fantastic work Look forward to reading more from you in the future.
Have you heard of PIFFY? I wonder if they would be a good choice for me.
I just came here for the games, but I couldn`t help noticing that this site is so full of prejudice, hatred for gays, left wing, abortion, etc. I mean, you would definitely attack me for not being a “Christ-follower”. Why do you think you are right and the rest are wrong? Intolerance rules here!!!