So everyone saw this yesterday in the news:
Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held
Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation’s few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.
A Kansas abortion doctor was terminated in his church yesterday by a very-late-term gunman. I am saddened when a gunman chooses to permanently remove a church’s usher, and I would like us to work together to give gunmen everywhere more options. We all want to minimize the despair that befalls churches who can’t find good usher replacements.
Notice the callousness of the language of the left? Those same folks are crazy-spun about this shooting in Kansas… yet blindly look away when the shootee cuts babies into pieces, or dries them alive from the inside out with salt, or some other method that renders water-boarding a truly zen-spa massage experience (and a non-lethal one at that). So whatever, I guess… up is down… in is out… liberal logic, ho hum.
So, can’t we say – using the logic of the left – that the gunman was just executing his freedom of choice? Maybe he wanted to rock the vote? Okay, so he decided not to choose life for the usher… but he may choose life for the next usher, right? Isn’t choice beautiful?
The family said its loss “is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence.”
Might I humbly suggest that when women are cut into pieces after steel is punctured into their brain intentionally this doesn’t qualify as providing these unborn women “high-quality health care”.
Do we prosecute the gunman? Yes… and whatever punishment he gets we should then visit upon every abortion doctor on the planet, multiplied by the number of abortion-murders they’ve perpetrated, and multiplied again by the ratio of the innocence of the victims (i.e. the innocence of a baby versus the “innocence” of a mass-murderer… which I’d guess is around 15 trillion to one… without original sin it’d probably be infinite).
And, holy smokes, what the heck are they preaching at Wichita’s Reformation Lutheran Church where killing little babies is okay? What is this… First Church of Satan?
If anyone wants to lose their lunch Google “late term abortions”. You just may become a gunman, too… j/k 
… n/r 
…
A message from Steve Hayford of APAC New York:
As many of you may have heard, Kansas abortionist George Tiller was murdered yesterday while he attended a Lutheran church service.
Tiller was known for practicing late-term abortions–including partial-birth abortions–and was unsuccessfully prosecuted for violating state law in the conduct of his abortion practice. Tiller performed abortions since the early 1970’s. Tiller was a major supporter of the political campaigns of former Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, who now serves as Secretary of Health and Human Services under President Obama. At the time of his death, Tiller was under investigation for medical ethics violations in connection with his abortion clinic.
APAC condemns the murder of George Tiller and expresses sincere condolences to his family. APAC also calls for Tiller’s murderer to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Further, APAC reminds Christians and other members of the pro-life community that we must never violate our Biblical convictions regarding the sanctity of life; we are not to fight evil with evil or take the law into our own hands. “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord” (Romans 12:19).
However, APAC takes issue with the laudatory statement made yesterday by Governor David Paterson regarding George Tiller’s murder. The governor’s statement makes it appear that Tiller was an American hero. Governor Paterson’s statement praises Tiller for his alleged “fearlessness, compassion and commitment,” for allegedly protecting women’s rights, and for allegedly seeking “to ensure that his patients were provided with the medical, emotional and spiritual counsel they needed to make the right choice for themselves and their families.” The governor added, “With his murder, we are robbed…of a dedicated and courageous physician.” In reality, George Tiller took the lives of countless numbers of precious unborn children, and his actions in life demonstrated no compassion at all for these most vulnerable members of our society. Condemning the murder of George Tiller does not require our governor to pretend that Tiller was an honorable man, or that his work as a late-term abortionist was somehow praiseworthy.
While the murder of George Tiller is a morally repugnant act, Governor Paterson’s faulty moral compass is deeply troubling. It is also deeply troubling that certain organizations and members of the media are seizing on Tiller’s murder to foster a public perception that one person’s lawless act reflects on all pro-life people and organizations. These false and misleading portrayals of the pro-life movement say more about those who perpetrate them than they do about the pro-life movement itself.
http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/press_0531092.html
I'm a Christ-follower, compelled by my faith toward reason, which points directly toward conservatism. This world's daily onslaught of lunacy offends my intellect and senses, so this is my venue to blow off steam.
Hey [edited] for brains, you do realize a man was murdered right? Are you trying to say that just because of this man’s profession it is alright to take his life?
Besides, there is nothing wrong with abortion. Do you remember being in your mother’s womb? I didn’t think so. The aborted fetus wouldn’t even have ever known of it’s own existence. Also, this is America. The land of the free. Shouldn’t women be allowed the freedom to choose what to do with their own bodies? You don’t hate freedom do you?
And lastly, keep following your two thousand year old religion that some nutjob made up. There are so many fallacies in the bible that with our knowledge today’s world show that the creator of the bible really didn’t know what the hell he was talking about. People have evolved mentally since the time of Christianity’s beginning and people who still fall for something that the uneducated people of the first century fell for truly are the bane on today’s society. You truly are idiotic.
This is so sad. Whether abortion is good or bad, that’s not the real issue here. Thing is, two wrongs NEVER make a right. NEVER.
Too bad some people are too simple minded to stop and think about what they’re doing. I’ve read about several kidnappings annually of the families of cosmetics companies workers in UK. All done by ecologists, branded thanks to this eco terrorists. Not only did they not achieve what they were fighting for, they also managed to get the whole society riled up about their actions.
Similarly here, if it was done by some misguided anti abortion protester, he should know his plan will backfire.
Hey mr. negative 99 creator guy, please note that this is AMERICA, in AMERICA we have the right to SAY and DO what we want.
and here is a question that pro-life supporters should ponder, what if you or someone you knew was raped and became pregnant? what is she supposed to do with the baby? rather let the child live their life in pain or one quick painless operation witch the fetus wont feel or remember? think about it! I totally agree with Jim 100%. plus, the people who shoot these doctors believe if you “kill one doctor, 1,000 fetuses are saved”… THEY AREN’T COMING IN YOUR HOUSE AND KILLING YOUR BABY WHILE YOU SLEEP! ITS THE WOMAN’S CHOICE!
This pisses me off, why does this have to happen? Are we all this uncivilized? how long will this ignorance continue? i really hope this all ends soon, all of this killing and yelling is just stupid. plus, what ever happened to “I don’t agree with your opinion but I still respect your view’s”?
Health care my a**!!!
While there are a few (emphasis on the word FEW) genuine medical reasons for terminating a pregnancy prior to viability, I can think of NO reason at all for late term abortion.
Any educated person will sit back and realize that after around 24, 26 weeks or whatever when the baby can survive, perhaps with much medical help, that there is NEVER a need for abortion. Induced labor, yes. Emergency c-section, yes. Many, many times there are very valid reasons to get that baby the heck out of there ASAP. But that isn’t an abortion.
Everyone involved might very well know that the baby has a good chance of not making it if mom is induced at 25 weeks because of dire medical conditions. But at least the baby has a CHANCE of making it. At least the doctors will do whatever is reasonably possible to save that baby. And after about 26 or 27 weeks it is extremely likely that the baby will live. Even avoiding controversial extreme heroics with say a 22 or 23 week old baby is not the same thing as abortion. Its all about the intent and the willingness to DO NO HARM.
So why do these brainiacs conveniently skirt this fact when making out like late term abortions are a medical neccessity??? I think you know the reason as well as I do…
Evil does not justify evil. There is never a reason to take anothers life. The fact that “religious” persons justify murder, hate, and violence in the ‘name of god’ is as sick and twisted as it was 200 years ago, 2000 years ago, and beyond.
And Christians; your Jesus Christ sacrificed his life for the rest of sinful mankind. He did not kill them. He loved them.
The comment above says the bible is false and outdated.. that is clearly not an issue and should be exempt from modern religion. Mankind will always fill in the blanks (or even just the clouded parts) with their own emotions and rational…
Last sunday a man was murdered. That is a sad day.
@ Jim
By your logic none of us should be alive. If you say that just because we cant remember something it means that our lives are worthless. Do you rember what you had for dinner on 06/12/1998? if not your life is worthless. Do you remember being 6? If not you should probably by aborted.
Perhaps these same women should have chosen to close their legs. Perhaps these same women should have thought about the countless others who CANNOT have children. I dont care what a woman does to her own body. However, when she has another life inside of her then it makes me mad when she decides to have it killed when it sould survive.
I dont believe that man should have been murdered but i do believe he should atone for taking the lives that he took.
Of course you are probably one of the same people that called Vietnam vets baby killers.
Have you ever read the bible?
There were a few comments held for moderation that I just approved (I’ve been offline for a few days). I’m going to hop on soon and weigh in.
@bored-guy
Just because they are not coming into my house and killing my baby does not make it right for them to kill another persons baby.
And for your “Woman’s choice” comment refer to my previous post.
About the women who dont get a choice. Perhaps the woman who was “inconvenienced” by a child should learn to close her legs or give the baby to someone who would love it instead of kill it.
And how do you know what the child feels? How do you know the operation is painless?
If a tiger was going to kill its cub would you intervene?
Would it have been a sad day if Hitler was murdered?
All deaths are not a bad thing?
@Liz
you nailed it
@TJ Mock
“All deaths are not a bad thing”
This is a very interesting comment.. I left out the question mark because I think it is a safe bet that you are grammar impaired and you really were not intending on asking that.
Death is a sad thing. Whether or not you are sad is a matter of consequence. Somebody is sad. I bet you Hitler’s mother was very sad when he died. Maybe she was sad about what he had become as well. People today are so very naive.
This is a semi religious blog so I feel comfortable quoting The Bible or at least commenting on the THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; Thou shall not kill. There was no * next to that statement. There is no rational that states its acceptable to kill if the person is “really really bad”.
I do think it is amusing that the doctors are prosecuted and punished for these late term abortions. That is like shooting the hang-man. He has been given the power, the training, and the skills to perform these. He has not used force or treachery to convince women to do these things.
If there was an easier way for the operation to take place there would be no doctors, there would be no middleman. These women would perform the acts themselves. Then what would the protesters say\do?
I wonder….
And further more… if it were outlawed in the United States do you think women would just carry out the pregnancy or do you think that these acts would turn underground? Where women perform abortions in make shift clinics with untrained help.
I am really neutral about the topic of abortion. I was raised to think of consequences to understand the effects of my actions. I have a daughter and have never had to be in the situation of having to decide whether or not abortion is an option. Proper education and child rendering will go much farther then shooting a doctor while he was in church.
One more thing TJ “If a tiger was going to kill its cub would you intervene”
The animal world is a beautiful thing, very instinctual with little reasoning. Animals kill their young in nature every minute of every day. They do it out of necessity, according to the abilities of the mother as well as the habitat. That was actually a very poor statement on your part and a reflection of your grasp on Life. Animals do just fine on their own we are the cause of their demise we are their evil DOCTOR.
@simple
1. yes that was a grammatical slip….thank you for the correction. However it was not necessary to call me “grammatically impaired”.
2. You are showing your ignorance in quoting the bible. The actual commandment is “thous shalt not murder” . Murder meaning the unlawful taking of a life. In a way there really should be a little * next that commandment in most modern bibles. And the man who shot the doctor WAS wrong.
3. Personally i think of most deaths as happy (the exceptions being those that never lived or got the chance to live, an increasingly larger percentage of people). If i were hitlers mother i probably would have died trying to stop him from doing all these things.
4.About the tiger comment. So you are saying that if you had the ability to help the ENDANGERED tiger cub. Whether raising it in a zoo or rehabilitating it, you would let it die.
5. Some people are not so different from animals in a way. They would kill there young rather than attempt to provide for them.
If animals do fine on their own, why have they been going extinct for however long the life has existed on earth? The opposite is true. Animals would struggle with or without humans and are in a constant state of struggle. They do not do fine on their own.
The difference is. He are smarter that animals and can provide a good life for our young. He CAN reason and see that killing an innocent child can be avoided by giving the child to a better home or sucking it up and accepting a little responsibility. Or, once again, closing your legs in the first place.
6. Where the people who still insist on murdering their children go if abortion is outlawed is the biggest reason i believe it shouldnt BE outlawed yet. Attitudes towards abortion must change before something can be done.
7. What doctors are prosecuted and punished? I do believed abortion is legal currently.
And i very much agree with “Proper education and child rendering will go much farther then shooting a doctor while he was in church.”
But that doesnt mean we should not try and fix issue of murder.
What i dont understand is why the thousands of babies that are killed are not treated as deaths and the murder of one man is.
I can not wait to hear what Waraxe has to say
Hey TJ, I like your response. I appreciate your response you seem like a person of thought. I enjoy debating and in text there is really no easy way to convey emotion so please understand that I am not attacking you or your beliefs I am simply debating.
With that said; I am going to quote a passage here for you
“These passages are provided in English below, using the New Revised Standard Version translation and formatting; Deuteronomy 5:6–21; 17; You shall not kill”
Exodus 20:2–17 lists the ten commandments as well and at verse 13; You shall not kill”
That is the most widely accepted MODERN day usage.
“The Roman Catholic Church uses the translation ‘kill’ (less specific) instead of ‘murder’”
So really its a TOmato, ToMAto kind of thing. And something that cannot be agreed upon, I believe. I really dont care which is used- DON’T TAKE SOMEONE ELSE’S LIFE is good enough for me.
You said “endangered Tiger cubs”. Well they are endangered because of poaching. So it is our fault they are endangered. We intervened when we killed them why not intervene to save them, very simply would you have done all that you could to save the dinosaurs if you were present at their demise? Who knows.. some yes, some no. And to answer your; “If animals do fine on their own, why have they been going extinct for however long the life has existed on earth?”
If you believe the bible the answer is in there. When god created Adam and Eve he gave them eternal life. It does not say that he gave the animals eternal life. So apparently they are meant to die. They are meant to live a life without reason. But this is all really off the point of the subject. I do not believe a tiger cub compares to a human baby at least on a scale of love and intellect and reason and all of that stuff.
To your #7 That doctor was punished. I do not believe that only the government can prosecute and punish. People take the law into their own hands every day. It is wrong but it happens. Abortion is legal but it has been on the scales of justice for hundreds of years. In ancient Greece, doctors were prohibited from taking active measures to help abortions but they were allowed to suggest different methods for a woman to abort at her own home.
To many tangents.. sorry. The doctor should not have been murdered. Unborn fetuses should not be aborted. PEOPLE must be educated with other forms of media than the force fed drug,sex, and violence. Which I am not against, I believe all things can be viewed in moderation. We as a culture are so far down the other side of scale that Sodom and Gomorrah look like a petting zoo. Really my comments are to stifle those who believe that HATE and VIOLENCE are acceptable when used for good. I feel pity for those people. To carry enough hate to move a person to kill must be an awful existence. I wish that upon no human being.
Well said.
On another note. Could you kill a man that was running at your family or you with some sort of weapon with intent to kill you or your family?
It is not TOmato toMAto thing. The translation has been studied and studied by people much smarter than you and I. A growing majority or them say that our use of “kill” is not the same action in actual biblical hebrew. Murder is not the same thing as kill. Just because the majority ACCEPTS it doesnt make it right. The modern people accepted slavery.
I believe if all things are acceptable in moderation as well. Violence (not really hate, only in the most extreme of occasions) can be used for good. While the moderation is much greater than say love it can still be used as a force for good and really must be used to help maintain peace.
You didnt answer my tiger question. No matter how the tiger became endangered we have the ability to save it. Would you?
This is a deep topic. But what worth changing isnt?
Oh boy… a few comments at a time now…
@jim
Oh geez… you were beaten by a nun growing up, weren’t you. Your faith-hate rant barely deserves mention, but just so you feel like you’ve been upgraded in some way…
Oh, so it’s okay to kill one-year-olds because they don’t remember it when they become adults? One question… with one question your “reasoning” falls into spaghetti.
@pozy
Your eco-terrorist analogy wasn’t really a cogent comparison… although you have some merit with what you said about the “fallout” and public reaction to such actions.
Don’t miss the point, though… the question is whether killing a mass-murderer is wrong if the type of mass-murdering was legal. Not many would question Hitler’s deserving of death as wrong, but his murder of Jews (also wrong) was technically legal under his totalitarian regime. If abortion is murder, then stopping abortion is pretty damn noble. Stopping abortion with killing lands you in a gray area (punishable under law). That’s the only sad part… that the most “wrong” thing about what happened is that killing a mass-murderer is not legal if the murders weren’t against the law.
@Bored-guy
Oh geez… another one…
What?! Did you really just say that? Really? Bless my soul, I could have sworn there were laws governing stealing, killing, assaulting, sabotage, speeding, jaywalking, loitering, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc…
My thoughts, exactly… on abortion.
@Liz
Very well said, several times.
@TJ Mock
And good question about reading the Bible – most critics have never done so.
Aaahhh… you beat me to my point with the memory thing.
@simple
Come on… that ‘ole schtick about killing in the name of God is tired and doesn’t even apply here because none of the rationale I used was tied back to the Bible or my personal faith. I used plain reason and self-evident truths.
You “evil doesn’t justify evil” people like to ride the subjective subtleties for everything they’re worth without actually defining to finer points of how you would put this into practice in the real world. Is throwing an innocent man in prison evil? Yes, you say? Oh, then doesn’t throwing a rapist in prison use evil to justify evil? *snap*
@TJ Mock
Again… you beat me to my own point with Hitler!
@simple
Oh… my… gosh… you give me so much material to slice and dice that I’m quivering. BUT, alas… TJ Mock has already beat me to the punch twice… and I can’t let him get the trifecta, so since I see that he responded to you already, I will bat cleanup.
@TJ Mock
Ooohhh… very nice. Very nice, indeed.
I would add, in response to simple, that – although a small percentage – many parents abuse their children. This is often very much against existing laws, and abso-friggin-lutely we should intervene!!!
Sure what the shooter did was wrong, but because it was against the law, not because it removed a mass-murderer from the planet.
@simple
Sure, it would go underground again. That’s fine. For one thing it will be a much more ominous prospect, and probably deter any sensible woman. And besides, if I could cast a magic spell that would introduce even a small chance that a criminal’s gun might backfire and hurt/kill them as well as (or instead of) the victim… you BET I would cast it!
Yes, true. But everything in the Bible must be taken as a whole and not in parts. If God says “Do Not Kill”… and then says “Go wipe those people from the face of the Earth (including women, children, cattle)”… then we have to ask ourselves in what context are we to NOT kill, and under what authority CAN we kill. This gets into heavy stuff… just war theory and such. I have a post related to this topic here: http://negative99.com/faith/who-would-jesus-punch/
I think I agree with that 100%.
Well aren’t you a respectful host. Answering everybody.. very nice.
Now I have something rather low-ball to say. I believe it is low ball because I should have said it earlier but because I am saying it now it may come across as just a cheap cop-out. What I have to say is that when I was speaking of “evil doesn’t justify evil” I was not speaking of the justice of man. I could not care less what a government believes to be proper punishment for a action/crime they may choose or not choose to outlaw.
Just because it is legal doesn’t vindicate it from morality, and just because it is outlawed does not mean it is wrong.
Seriously just look at are capitol punishment; if you thought about killing someone for a length of period before you actually killed them=you are really really bad and need to die
BUT
if you only thought about killing someone for 15 seconds before you actually killed them then yes, it is bad, but really just something you need to think about for a long time.
If a man was running at my family with the intent to hurt them I will shoot him in the face, and after the matter I wouldn’t know whether or not I was right or wrong in doing so or whether or not he deserved the new ventilation in his skull.
Mankind sucks at trying to figure out what is right and what is wrong. I do what I think I am supposed to do. I ask for forgivness for where ever I may have fallen short each day, and I wake up the next morning with the intent on doing it better.
The doctor is dead. All of the unborn children he ‘treated’ are dead. I truely, honestly, and deeply hope with all of my conviction that no one human being finds rejoice in any of this.
If you take happiness in another persons death than you are just the same.
WARAXE
you said;
Sure, it would go underground again. That’s fine. For one thing it will be a much more ominous prospect, and probably deter any sensible woman. And besides, if I could cast a magic spell that would introduce even a small chance that a criminal’s gun might backfire and hurt/kill them as well as (or instead of) the victim… you BET I would cast it!
~~
No it is not fine. A sensible woman who accidently got pregnant. Or was raped.. doesn’t want anyone to know what happened.. and she will pay her sensible hard earned dollars to wipe her slate clean.
You ever make a mistake?
It would be pretty sweet to wipe it away forever, huh?
Our society allows the creation of life to be called a mistake. That is wrong but the instinct to make our mistakes go away is natural. We as a human race care what people think. So it going underground is not ok.
Education, and better parenting is the only answer.
Not making it illegal
Not killing a doctor
Not burning down a building
Not writing a response to WarAxe’s post about happy you are this doctor is dead Or how amazing this doctor was.
I thank you for taking the time. I have been playing the games on this site for a long time, this was the first article I was compelled to respond to. My daughter was born on April 27th. My wife and I had not planned to have children for a few more years. Today I have no idea how I would have made it “a few more years” with out this amazing force of love I now carry for her.
Thank you and have a great day everybody.
oh yeah.. if I could make a gun backfire on somebody shooting me or my friends and family.. I would too. But I am not a humanitarian. Excuse my language but I could not give a f**k what anybody else does outside of my immediate perspective.
Why are we trying to fix other countries when we cant fix ourselves?
I think i can get down with that.
I dont think society would shun a woman who was raped. Most people i know would try to comfort her.
Perhaps the sensible woman could give that child to that same couple that i have been talking about (the one that cant have children).
to answer the “Why are we trying to fix other countries when we cant fix ourselves?”
Its hard to believe but alot of them are alot more f****d up than we are. We at least have some sort of ability to change things. Or at the very least express the need for change. The countries that we should try and fix need these freedoms.
huge tangent.. but just to explain my earlier comment;
I agree that if you have the power to change something than you should. But somethings take time and sometimes not interfering is a more powerful action than if you did.. we changed things for ourselves and became the greatest nation. I believe that helping out other countries AS MUCH AS WE DO is the same as Welfare or free handouts…
We would not have succeeded in become independent without the help of other countries.
So if we stop sending aid to africa all the starving people would die and they would be better off?
I agree that we have not found the right balance between guidance, interference, and aid but it will always be a work in progress.
It’s been a while since I visited this site, and I’m glad to see it’s still here. The arguments from the War-Axe and many of the readers are usually quite eloquent. I like it.
That being said, I naturally have a few cents to throw in.
@Simple
You are right, Jesus did not kill the sinful man, he loved them. Proper Christ followers do the same. But we also dont pussy foot around about sin, we put our foot down and end it when we can. About abortion, that would be proper debate in the political sphere. On other issues, is could mean waging wars with the cost being thousands dead and thousands of years of human agony (of all persons involved combined) to end a worse thing like genocide.
Two wrongs don’t make a right, two mistakes don’t make proper conduct. Rape is a vicious thing that must be cracked down on as hard as possible in order to completely eliminate it from society. But just because a baby came of a rape doesn’t mean that we must aggravate the situation by adding a murder (of the baby through abortion) on top of that. Not to mention, the should-have-been mothers often end up with psychological trauma after an abortion. Adding that trauma to somebody who’s just been raped just might break the mind.
Though abortions would go underground, a major underground abortion network would probably only last ten years. That is my own guesstimate. Why I say that is because when a baby is born, a new appreciation for life is often formed in the parents, and they would never give it up for the world. Enough people would be deterred by the new laws to cause many people experience the new appreciation. They would then tell other people about it, changing the minds of many who had considered abortion and leading to the collapse of the underground abortion networt. Of course, I would prefer that the network never exist in the first place.
@TJ, War-Axe and Liz
Keep it up!
Truly a shame that this extremely brave and honorable man had to go in such a way as this. In no way can you compare the “life” of a group of cells and undeveloped organs to the life of an actual living breathing human being.
the really sad part about all of this was on the same day a soldier was killed by a, i’ll say “foreign”, gunman and nobody heard about it. at least nowhere near the amount of people who knew about this. its sad that this story was more newsworthy.
@Ryan V.
What constitutes life in your book? And we’re talking about a late term abortion doctor. The child is not simply a group of cells and undeveloped organs.
@John3Sobieski;
“a major underground abortion network would probably only last ten years. That is my own guesstimate”
The other statements you made had some weight and were worth the read. This statement above is absurd. Something that has been going on for thousands of years is going to have a decade shelf life after the oh so strong American Government bans it? Your entire argument fell apart right there. With that kind of rational I can’t help but wonder how strong your footing is on so many other points.
“Rape is a vicious thing that must be cracked down on as hard as possible in order to completely eliminate it from society.”
Absolutely NOT. You can not have true peace under a whip.
Men need to be taught from a very early age to respect women.
Women need to be taught to respect themselves.
These are very short phrases, but the amount of work that would go into such a serious task is mind boggling.
We give the death penalty to murderers in a number of states yet people still murder. In some states Castration is giving to sexual predators yet men still assault and abuse. So what kind of SUPREME punishment are you talking about?
A man rapes a woman and she becomes pregnant.
That man now has a burden to bare whether it be with the law and/or God.
The woman is still innocent in the morality sense. If she chooses to abort that child she is making a choice to do so. Whether it was an easy choice or a difficult one she made it. I really cannot believe that our government will ever be able to stop a woman from aborting a life.
In getting to the point of deciding that they dont want that child they would be so resolute that I can imagine they would end their own life to stop it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@everybody;
There is a very clear line between Christ Followers and the non. Just because you see the beauty of life and understand the value of creation does not mean that anyone else does. It just means that you do personally.
People do horrible things to themselves every single day. They BELIEVE it is perfectly normal.. PERFECTLY NORMAL. As long as they dont physically see a child then it doesn’t exist. And thus they are just going to hurt themselves once again with no consequences to avoid what they think is a life unwanted. This is the way of things. And we cannot be reactionists about it. I am saying that we cannot fix the problem after the fact. Proper education is the only way. I will stand by that simply because there are enough people who want to punish others for their sins. You dont need me on your bandwagon.
@TJ
I am not going to respond to your statement about foreign aid.
I think you knew what I meant. I was clearly making a reference to WELFARE and abusing the help.
You can use the help and become better or take the help and expect more.
There are some very intelligent powerful Americans who have set up foundations that are teaching Africans how to grow crop, sow, and raise cattle. A pallet full of food falling from the sky will never compare to the ability to take care of yourself for the rest of your life.
I just reread all of the posts above.
Boondock Saints, is a movie about killing evil people. That movie is now resounding in my head while I contemplate everything written above. This is a good thread, besides the obvious blatantly ignorant two-sentenced post from some illiterate. But hey, have to love the internet.
I really think it is interesting that the Pro-Choice commentors above say
“Do you remember being in your mother’s womb? I didn’t think so. The aborted fetus wouldn’t even have ever known of it’s own existence”
“rather let the child live their life in pain or one quick painless operation witch the fetus wont feel or remember?”
I wish people would use a little more sense before sharing their opinion.
Has anybody ever remembered dieing? Young or old?
If anybody KNOWS the answer to this please call me I would love to chat.
The baby feels every emotion the mother feels. That is a scientifically proven FACT. So if momma feels something baby feels it.
Existence, in my opinion, is something that is given.
Really if one were to think about it, as long as any one person remembers you/it/her/him being created then there is an existence of some consideration. And creation of life starts at conception soooo ummmmm 1+1= ???
The Boondock Saints is one of the greatest movies ever made. Cant wait for the equal.
What about Frankenstein’s monster? That is a deep book that touches on some of the things discussed in this thread.
I’m not going to jump on here and try to convince anyone one way or another. Religious opinions aren’t exactly the best way to formulate conversation.
I’m also not here for some, *snap* response, although I just might get some, heh. I’ve played the forum schtick for quite awhile.
My 2 cents-
Interestingly, a recent story you might or might not have read about –
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/03/07/catholic-abortion.html
Basically, a 9 year old girl in Brazil is raped, and is pregnant with twins. Doctors believe her body won’t survive through that kind of delivery, so they abort the 15week fetuses. Catholic church excommunicates the doctors.
BTW, Abortion is illegal in Brazil, except for pre 20 week, danger to the mother issues.
So, my question is, opinion on the above story? Personally, I don’t agree with people who think the world is perfectly black and white. Maybe I’m wrong, but logically is just doesn’t seem to be that way with right and wrong.
I would go in to the greater issue to this post of secular, but let’s keep my first post nice and not -so- controversial to a conservative blog.
I’ve done enough arguing and flaming on the internet, I’m ready for some decent discussion, and common ground.
-Casey (dirty heathen liberal who loves America and all that is GOOD in this world as much as you do)
@Casey
I agree that nothing is black and white. And i think that in that instance the abortion was not a bad thing to do.
This issue is such a hard topic that it pretty much has to be taken case by case as to which is right and wrong.
Personally i think the US should have a law similar to the Brazil law.
There is no sense in killing a child that is viable outside of the womb. There are so many people that could give that child the love and care it deserves. Whether the child was forced on the mother or not.
It really makes me mad though when sexually active people call a pregnancy accidental. There is no such thing. The whole function of sex is to reproduce.
@Tj
Ditto.
You would think we should have started at that point.. would have saved so much typing.
@TJ
“There is no sense in killing a child that is viable outside of the womb. There are so many people that could give that child the love and care it deserves. Whether the child was forced on the mother or not.
It really makes me mad though when sexually active people call a pregnancy accidental. There is no such thing. The whole function of sex is to reproduce.”
Two points that hopefully I can put across without agitating-
Firstly, yes, it would be wonderful and I would fully agree if all children found loving parents, but that’s just not the reality. How many orphans grow up without parents / parents who are horrid (separate issue of the state of parenting nowadays). Orphanages aren’t super happy places, and it’s not always a great story. I truly wish it was.
Second, while you are right, biologically the point of sex is to reproduce, I seriously doubt you only have sex to reproduce. Obviously I don’t know you, so I am being lighthearted when I say you, but a strong part of any relationship (especially marriage) is a sex life. Sex as a whole has so many other reasons, other than straight reproduction. I actually agree with you that people really don’t have a whole lot of excuses for getting pregnant nowadays, but I can’t agree with your classification of sex. Again, it’s just not that black and white to me.
As a throwaway comment, because we won’t change each others opinion, I highly disagree with you on rape victims. But anyway, look forward to further discussion!
Oohh… I’ve been taking care of my newborn (not by myself) and have missed some good conversation. I’ll jump in soon.
@Casey
You make some good points that show you’ve thought about this.
I can’t let these other left wingers (to use your term and also super generalize a bunch of random people) make those of the same opinion look so weak- writing wise.
I had to say something!
BTW, I found this blog as I was watching the Incredible Hulk. The opening scene mentioned Stark Industries, and being a huge fan of Iron Man, I googled around and got your entry about the Logo comparison.
@Simple
The idea behind my guestimation is that many new parents would realize what they were considering throwing away when they were thinking about going to the underground abortion network. Many of them would fall in love with their children and tell others of the newfound happiness in their lives. Nothing like happiness can be more effective in changing people’s decisions. If they believe that they’ll be happier without the abortion, then they wont have it, and the network will collapse.
You are right, the government in the end cannot prevent any abortions. It is the the choice of the woman, every time. But the people in the government are morally obligated to disuade women from having abortions as best they can. As the people who elect the government, we are morally obligated to vote for people who will do so.
“The idea behind my guestimation is that many new parents would realize what they were considering throwing away when they were thinking about going to the underground abortion network. Many of them would fall in love with their children and tell others of the newfound happiness in their lives. Nothing like happiness can be more effective in changing people’s decisions. If they believe that they’ll be happier without the abortion, then they wont have it, and the network will collapse.”
This is way way too rosy of an outlook, as much as, I think, everyone on the planet would like it to be.
Simple get it right, and realistic-
“Something that has been going on for thousands of years is going to have a decade shelf life after the oh so strong American Government bans it?” No, it won’t. Underground abortion networks are the norm, just because it’s been legal for 40 years, doesn’t change the history, or human behavior.
I was trying to think of another point entirely so this isn’t just a rebuke post, but can’t really, so I apologize.
I meant Simple gets* it right, and realistic-.
Yeah, it does seem a bit rosy. But I for one believe that good can perpetuate itself as easily as evil can. Soon after Roe v. Wade, we found ourselves with 4,000 dead American babies a day. Just because there is a hardcore minority that would go to any lengths to get an abortion anyway, doesn’t mean that it would be a futile exercise to outlaw it.
One thing I forgot to address in Simple’s last post is my proposed “SUPREME punishment.”
I did not propose any punishment, I simply stated that rape must be cracked down upon as hard as possible in an attempt to completely erase the problem, as rape is such a dreadful thing. I break with most conservatives on the point of the “justice” system. They often say that it serves as a punishment for criminals. I prefer the view of a holding pen and rehab center.
We are humans, not God. We are too flawed to administer true justice. Every time we try we either end up being too light or too hard in the punishment, so I for one don’t see much point in trying. I think that there is hope for every human being, so I support the rehab idea. Many, though, are so far out there that it is nearly impossible for a psychologist to sort through the messed up wiring of a rapist’s or sex offender’s brain. Therefor, the only thing to do is cordon them off from society in a place where they can do no harm to the general populace.
Another thing, you said that men need to learn to respect women, and women need to learn to respect themselves. Absolutely true. That would mean outlawing things like pornography and gangster rap. Unfortunately, if that happened, this neo-pagan world would be up in arms.
@John3Sobieski
“Another thing, you said that men need to learn to respect women, and women need to learn to respect themselves. Absolutely true. That would mean outlawing things like pornography and gangster rap. Unfortunately, if that happened, this neo-pagan world would be up in arms.”
Ok, among other things, this last paragraph got to me.
Firstly, pornography and gangster rap aren’t the underlying reason some men don’t respect woman, or some women don’t respect themselves. Fathers and Mothers take that responsibility. Secondly, rape has been around forever, and while you could technically argue that so has pornography, you can’t say the same about rap. I know this is an obvious point, but do you really think the solution is outlawing some of our freedoms? Rape, like murder, is some horrid part of being human, sort of the ying to love’s yang. I WISH WISH WISH we could figure out what allows people to morally do such a thing. Personally, I see the fault being with current parents, but that’s not to say rape is on a rampage nowadays compared to years past. If anything, more people are caught and actually punished for rape than ever before, rather than government, or church, or whatever authority it is turning a blind eye or not caring about the rights of the female sex.
Lastly, neo-pagan world? Huh? OK, I could understand if what you’re saying is, everyone besides your particular denomination of, I’m assuming, Christianity, is a pagan. But that’s just a misusage of the word. Heretics maybe, but pagans? Last I checked, the far majority of the world is religious, and the far majority of those religious are Christian or Muslim (smaller section of Jews). So maybe half the world is pagan, but even then, that Muslim side doesn’t really do the whole gansta rap thing, and can be far more conservative then we are.
This country certainly isn’t comprised of a majority of pagans. The people who would be up in arms are anyone who wants to keep their personal freedoms. Control what music I listen to? Sorry, that’s not a heathen dilemma, that’s a human being dilemma.
I don’t mean anything I write as anything other than my opinion. Further, I don’t mean any of it in a negative light. I hope it doesn’t come off that way.
———————————————-
All my personal opinion, feel free to go after me.
Some great dialogue! Wish I could comment on all of it. Firstly, let me say that if someone’s comment doesn’t go up right away I apologize… if I could set it so all of your particular comments go up right away I would. But every now and then one is held by WordPress for moderation (I’m never certain why with some of them)… so be patient and I will free it as soon as I see it.
I will say that, as a Christ-follower, I know that people have great capacity for evil because all of mankind is “fallen”. Laws are effective in as much as they protect the rights of individuals from harm from OTHERS and leave them free to conduct themselves as they will for THEMSELVES. I am against abortion because it infringes on that principle for the poor “unwanted” child being harmed by her mother’s “doctor”.
@ Casey
Don’t worry about sounding too negative, you’re not throwing insults around all willy nilly so I don’t mind a good intellectual arguement.
As for gangster rap and porn, you’re right, they aren’t the underlying cause. The parents are. At the same time, they do perpetuate the idea of females merely being sexual playthings. Gangster rap also advocates other things, like doing drugs and violence in general. My point is that if you get rid of things that help perpetuate the attrocities, then the number of them will go down and the problem becomes easier to handle. Therefor, I would have no problem with the government eliminating porn and gangster rap, since they are evil in the first place.
As for neo-pagan world, that is another point of misunderstanding between us. Just because somebody says they’re religious, doesn’t mean that they really are. I’m Catholic, and there are problematic people within the Church that would deserve the title of neo-pagan. A priest that used to be at my own parish could be classified as one. This was so long ago that I don’t remember it, but it happened. This priest wanted the parish “renovated,” which in liberal terminology means that the statues of the saints would be removed and the Communion rails taken out; in effect taking out much of the reverence to God. Also, we heard that he got married a week after his retirement, and priests of the Roman Rite are not supposed to get married.
Then, and I’m sure that War-Axe will agree with me on this, there are people like the Westboro Baptist Church (I think I got the name right) who only care about hating people. Those guys for sure are neo-pagans.
It’s a simple case of words vs. actions. Do their words professing Christianity match their actions or do they not? I know that at least in the area where I live, it’s usually not. They just say, “yeah, I’m Christian” and go about living their lives practically oblivious to the deep meaning of that title.
Isn’t that unwanted fetus being harmed by the mother’s choice? and not the doctor? You blame the murderer, not the weapon. (This has nothing to do with gun control, lol)
Note that while I say this, I’m not saying I agree with you, just wondering if your personal view should be directed towards why these women would have an abortion, rather than the scapegoat of blaming the doctor.
BTW, you’re doing fine on the moderation stuff, I don’t think any of them have had to wait too long. *thumbs up*
@Casey
“that Muslim side doesn’t really do the whole gansta rap thing, and can be far more conservative then we are.”
Rap does exist in the Muslim culture, and it is similar to the American Gangsta rap. I agree that comment should not have been made by Sobieski. Just be careful with the statements you make.
I do however completely and truly agree with you on parenting. Nothing else in this world would stifle abuse, abortion, drug use, violence, rape then proper parenting. Rap music does not teach disrespect, it very simply attracts the masses of children who are already keen to the idea of rebellion and violence. The rapper is not to blame. The fact that such a horribly disrespectful song is so overwhelmingly popular is scary.. It shows how many young men across this globe are “in tune” with those lyrics.
So anyways back to the article; Scott Roeder is the accused murderer of Dr. Tiller. He was mentally unstable, he was charged with acts against our government in the 90’s and he had an entire list of red flags against him.
“Roeder reportedly subscribed to Prayer and Action News, a magazine that advocated “justifiable homicide” as a way of protesting abortion.”
And honestly the most tragic story out of all of this is that he has two sons. One of which was born in 2002. Lets talk about consequences and justifiable actions after each person on earth does there best to raise their own children properly. You are not giving your children a better tomorrow by killing some guy. You are hurting them by excluding yourself from their lives.
“Justifiable Homicide”……. What the hell is wrong with people?!?!?!?! Are you serious. That is a magazine published in this country that has numerous subscribers??? That is petrifying to me.
@Waraxe
I am sorry but I can still not see your point on blaming the doctor. Erasing the medium is arbitrary. A serious person will find a way. Identifying the problem and seeing that it lies within the individual and correcting it their at the source is a positive solution. And if you are not looking for a positive solution then you are to blame too. It takes two to tango, two to have a war. This mindset that you are protecting babies who dont have a choice in the matter is null and void if you dont feel the exact same way about the mother. Why doesnt she deserve help? Why wasnt she saved? If I were born into a life of torture, abuse, and tragedy I am sure that I can only imagine every child goes through that, so why would I want to bring another into it. Which leads me into my 3rd response
@John3Sobieski
You are not aware of the life of millions of people. You are a spectator amongst them, but after those remarks about happiness trickling down from one another I can not sit here and see how you have experienced life as so many unfortunate souls have.
AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I WISH WE WERE ALL SO FORTUNATE. I wish I could believe in that much hope. You seem like you have alot of love. And that is apparent in your proposed judicial system of quarantine and rehabilitation. Very novel.
I just had an idea; if a person under the age of ‘X’ breaks a law of certain seriousness than not only is he quarantined and rehabilitated but so are the persons responsible for his upbringing. Mom and Dad are going in with their delinquent children and will be taught proper reform. They slipped under the radar but thank fully their children did not.
SIMPLE FOR PRESIDENT!
haha just kidding. that was beginning to sound a little to socialist for me. But I think you caught my drift.
Hope everybody is having a great Monday.
We are such a nation of REACTIONISTS.
That’s true… it did sound like I was letting the mother off. This would be premeditated murder on the part of the mother if the child was a day old, so it would be the same in my eyes if it was a day from being born.
People want to have others murdered for all kinds of reasons. Some seem more sympathetic than others. It’s been going on for a while…
oh yeah WARAXE congrats on Sawyer he looks adorable. Best of luck on raising him. Please do not apologize for ignoring your blog when you spend that time with your children.
@simple
Thanks for the correction Simple. While I’m happy I know some about broad Muslim culture, obviously I don’t know it all.
@waraxe
Do you consider a baby being aborted 1 day from birth the same as one being aborted 8 1/2 months from birth? Just a question of curiosity.
PS
@simple
There’s nothing wrong with sounding socialist. =D
@Casey
whether the question was directed at me or not i’m going to give an answer.
Yes….a baby being aborted 1 day from birth is the same as one being aborted 8 1/2 months from birth
Whether that abortion is “justified” “necesarry” or another term depends on the circumstances of the abortion.
If a girl was raped when she was young and became pregnant i think an abortion can be tolerated. For example
about your other comment. Socialism, communism, or anything of that nature doesnt, hasnt, and wont work. It is human nature to want and because all resources are scarce sharing everything is not going to work.
“. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British (and any other nationality, religion, or creeds) ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.”
Winston Churchill
My father was born in 1951 at 29 weeks old. He weighed 1.5lbs. My grandmother was dieing of heart disease and her body decided to eject my father. There were no incubators at that time. Despite missing 13 bones in his feet and having a vein issue in his legs due to the prematurity of his birth he fathered 4 kids and stands at 6 foot 5 and is over 200 lbs. I would be mighty ignorant to say that a child of 29 weeks is different category of life than 1 day after the due date. But that is just me.
The female body has different hormones and chemicals that have the ability to abort a fetus that the body doesn’t feel comfortable with. If a doctor were to come up with a medicine to hinder that and force pregnancy would PRO-LIFERS insist on that?
Is it ok for the human body to naturally abort a fetus?
Where do you draw the line between safe and unsafe? Who gets the supreme power of the judgment call?
where did TJ go?
@simple
Sorry… TJ’s comments got held. Annoying, I know.
@TJ
On the abortion question- Do you believe they are the same because of the belief in a soul? I can’t think of how else they could be the same.
As far as the socialist stuff,
Communism is a different subject than socialism.
The quote from the great Winston Churchill is all fine and dandy. All of your commentary about how socialism never worked, and won’t, is kind of confusing.
“Norway maintains a Scandinavian welfare model with universal healthcare, free higher education and a comprehensive social security system. Norway was ranked highest of all countries in human development from 2001 to 2006.[16] It was also rated the most peaceful country in the world in a 2007 survey by Global Peace Index.[17]”
Seems like it has been working for quite awhile. I never said anything about a totalitarian socialism, and never mentioned communism. Socialism isn’t a bad word, and as much as some people like to lump it in with Fascist dictators, they are just completely overlooking some things.
Scandinavian countries are social democracies, and have some of the highest per capita GDP’s in the world. Are they perfect? No, but they’re doing fine.
So, gotta say I disagree with your comments about “socialism”.
Hope we aren’t high jacking your post WarAxe. Also, I just mentioned that it’s alright to sound socialist, and this is the response I get? lol I wonder what would happen if I actually say something next time? =D
This is why i cant wait to die (not that i’m ready)… No more hard questions. lol
@simple
Personally i think the female body should be allowed to take its course. Doctors should intervene when stuff goes down.
Not being a doctor i couldnt begin to draw a line between safe and unsafe.
the ultimate decision should not be left to one person
please dont call me a pro-lifer. I’m not quite sure what i am and dont necessarily need to be labeled anything
@Casey
A. Dont let an exception become a rule
B. Norway has a long list of contributing factors that allow it to have such a great economy. And it does have and awesome economy. A few of these factors would include its size, lack of diversity (compared with other countries), abundance of natural resources, being surrounded by economically prospering nations.
C. However i would not want to live there. I can honestly say that i do not want to be taken care of. The more ability you give an entity to take care of you the more control you have to give it. I’m bitter about what the government takes out of my meager paycheck now, i cant imagine what Norway takes from its citizens.
I guess its a little of the Alexander Supertramp, Thoreau, or pioneer coming out in me that wants to go at it alone without help (except maybe a companion)
Whatever statistic or fact you say about socialism, communism, collectivism, and to a far lesser extent capitalism you cannot deny the fact that it placates people.
When stuff goes down…..and it will….i will be able to fend for myself.
Sorry if i’m comin on a bit strong against socialism.
I would rather not have any government.
But SOME people cant control themselves. unfortunately anarchy wont work.
Happiness (with hope directly connected to it) and dread both have the ability to perpetuate themselves. Where do you think that Africa comes from? On one side, you have all of the war torn countries trying to go genocide on each other, and on the other side you have Christians and Catholics of such devotion with so much hope that they have 80 year old men walking 30 miles or more just to get to mass (or service) on Sunday.
If everyone of us Christians would just have that much devotion, everybody would see the sense of purpose that we feel in our lives. In wanting it for themselves, the pagans and neo-pagans would join in, and we would have churches overflowing. Unfortunately, people like me fail on such a regular basis.
I want to write more, but I have to go out of town for a bit. I’ll finish this post when I get back.
@John3Sobieski
it is simply my opinion, but I believe that the sense of purpose comes before the devotion.
@John3Sobieski
I was merely responding to your statement that Socialism has NEVER worked, and won’t work. Norway is one of the Scandinavian countries employing social democracies, so to call them an exception would be a bit of an overstatement.
Yes, different circumstances than us, doesn’t change the facts though.
Yes, they take more from your paycheck, but you also get more, like healthcare. We’re the greatest country in the world and we can’t provide healthcare to all our citizens? That’s not being too lefty, that’s being downright Christian.
Anyway, one other thing. Why do we need more people in church? You don’t have to go to church to be a standup religious person. Maybe that’s personal opinion. I don’t think you have to have a connection with a building, when it’s all about a connection with God.
@TJ Mock
Some may define anarchy as ‘political disorder’, I would say that has been achieved, and it only proves your point; It does not work.
Republicans and Democrats used to define themselves by the difference of government control. One wanted little gov and the other big gov. Today it seems that the only difference is who gets ‘taken care’ of in the end. Socialism and communism are amazing concepts, yet utterly ridiculous in reality.
I do find it comical that CASEY brought up Norway as an example of a stellar socialist economy. Norway is my go to example for gun control. Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe and has the lowest murder rate. If Norway wants to live a certain way far-be-it for me or anyone else to say no to them, because the old woman on the corner is packing serious heat.
And for more on the socialist country that thinks its a capatalist nation check out this article;
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,919401,00.html
@Casey
I’m strongly against our country providing healthcare to its citizens. It’s not the job of federal government to do that… not in a free country. Once government steps in we all lose some freedom over what healthcare we’ll get. It’s a progression that ends with higher costs and poorer care. You won’t really more than maybe 5% of those skilled in economics saying it’s a good idea… because economically it’s a terrible idea.
I want free choice… and I want to only pay for what healthcare I want… and also I don’t want to pay forcibly for other people’s healthcare. Ultimately, healthcare is not a right. It sounds tasty to say “hey, we’re the greatest country in the world… everyone should have healthcare here”… but that’s a bad argument, because using that logic we could argue that everyone in this country should have a safe car, a safe house, a top school, etc. etc… and where would this money come from? The producers.
No great country ever stayed great when the government started squeezing the productive to pay for the unproductive. Welfare and such is a great example of this… because it is such an abused system with people purposely trying to stay ON the system when they have the ability to get off of it.
As a Christian, I would help those who need it… but it should be at a personal level, where I can know who I’m helping and provide relational support and oversight… so I’m not just giving money to a drunk or giving healthcare to someone with clothes that cost 4x what mine do and has a TV 3x bigger than mine. Gov’t is in no position to really monitor where the money goes… so abuse is rampant. Charities are where I would say people could get help… because charities represent the free will of thh people to help others, this is what it means to be a Christian – to WILLINGLY help. Forcible help by way of tax-and-spend programs does not show any charity on the heart of the giver, and just lends to problems.
A semi-related case in point is Africa. Africa, thanks to over a trillion in Western Aid, is now WORSE off. Yep. Because money wasn’t the answer. It rarely addresses any problem. There are articles I won’t go into here that address why Africa is worse off… just Google.
Okay, this was longer than I expected… but I think government is wasteful, and I know from the Constitution that healthcare is not a right. There are things we could do to improve healthcare – for sure – but they won’t be done… mostly because to lower costs you’d have to pass tort reform and cut WAY back current government medical “entitlements” that already artificially drive up the costs. You ever wonder why drugs are cheaper in Canada than for the SAME THING here in the US? Because in the US the companies can get guaranteed bucks from HMOs, Medicare, and Medicaid for the drugs. If we would get the government out of it, and allow US citizens to buy drugs on a GLOBAL market (ok, mostly just with Canada), then drug costs would plummet, seriously. NOW, the R&D costs would dry up a bit, too… meaning that new breakthrough drugs would take longer to be developed and get on the market… but that’s fine, really. If there was a drug that would GUARANTEED add 3 years to anyone’s life, but cost 3 Billion per person… I would just as soon like for that drug to have never been discovered. Do you see why?
“Anyway, one other thing. Why do we need more people in church? You don’t have to go to church to be a standup religious person. Maybe that’s personal opinion. I don’t think you have to have a connection with a building, when it’s all about a connection with God.”
You’re right, you don’t need a connection to a building to have a connection with God. The thing is, though, that a Church is the House of God. That is the place where it is easiest to get a connection because that is where God is in His most substantial form on Earth.
This is especially true for Catholics, and I’ll tell you why. We believe that the consecrated Bread and Wine contain the real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. He is really there, and being there with Him strenthens the spiritual connection.
I like to think of it this way. The Sacrifice on Calgary (which is made present by the Consecration) is the New Covenant. We treat it the exact same way as the Jews used to treat the Old Covenant. Countless times in the Bible, the Kings, priests, and prophets of the Old Testament would go before the Ark of the Covenant in the Temple and listen to God’s word. It’s the same kind of deal in a Catholic Church, with God’s New Covenant being present and stored in the tabernacle.
In the comment of people going thirty miles to go to Church in Africa, I often use the term “church” and “mass” interchangably. And yes, according to the Ten Commandments, we are ordered to “keep the Sabbath Day holy,” and to us Catholics that means going to mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation.
Interestingly enough, Mass in Africa is often not said inside a church. The people there are too poor to afford to buy one, so some priests will pull up a stump for an altar, say mass, several thousand people show up, and after Mass they spend the rest of their time administering other sacrements. In the end, everything in the Catholic Church is aimed at the glorification of Jesus in the Eucharist, including the buildings in which we hold mass.